Welcome to our monthly feature, Close-ing Time – in partnership with TheClose.com.
Chris Linsell from TheClose.com provides a definition of wholesaling in real estate. Chris and D.J. discuss processes and regulations around wholesaling. Next, Chris and D.J. discuss possible problems that can arise from this process, does this process make sense for home-sellers and when? Last, Chris describes types of people who make the best fit for this job.
If you’d prefer to watch this interview, click here to view on YouTube!
Chris Linsell can be reached at firstname.lastname@example.org.
This episode is brought to you by Real Geeks.
D.J. Paris 0:00
On today’s episode is wholesaling and ethical practice and does it ever make sense? Stay tuned. This episode of Keeping it real is brought to you by real geeks. How many homes are you going to sell this year? Do you have the right tools? Is your website turning soft leads and interested buyers? Are you spending money on leads that aren’t converting? Well real geeks is your solution. Find out why agents across the country choose real geeks as their technology partner. Real geeks was created by an agent for agents. They pride themselves on delivering a sales and marketing solution so that you can easily generate more business. Their agent websites are fast and built for lead conversion with a smooth search experience for your visitors. Real geeks also includes an easy to use agent CRM. So once a lead signs up on your website, you can track their interest and have great follow up conversations. Real geeks is loaded with a ton of marketing tools to nurture your leads and increase brand awareness visit real geeks.com forward slash keeping it real pod and find out why Realtors come to real geeks to generate more business again, visit real geeks.com forward slash keeping it real pod and now on to our show
Welcome to keeping it real the largest podcast made by real estate agents and for real estate agents. My name is DJ Paris. I am your guide and host through the show and today is our monthly series called closing time with Chris Lynn cell from the close now this is a partnership between keeping it real and the clothes.com. Let me tell you about the clothes. The clothes.com is the kind of real estate website designed to give agents teams and brokerages actionable strategic insight from industry professionals. They cover real estate marketing, lead generation technology and team building strategies from the perspective of working agents and brokers who want to take their business to the next level, please visit the clothes.com That’s a close th e c l o s e.com And subscribe to their newsletter so you can get notified each time they publish an article with us as always as crystallin Sal, he’s a staff writer and real estate coach for the close. Chris is the closes resident expert on real estate topics ranging from marketing lead gen transactional best practices and everything in between. He’s a licensed agent in the state of Michigan. Chris has been part of hundreds of transactions from modest rural starter homes to massive waterside compounds. And when he isn’t writing or coaching, you’ll find Chris fly fishing or performing on the stage of his community theaters, local production. Now, Chris, welcome once again to keeping it real. We’re excited to have you,
Chris Linsell 2:52
DJ, great to be back. Happy to be here. It’s It’s a big day. It’s a big day. I don’t know why but it’s just going to be a big one. Today is going to be a big one. Whenever you’re listening to this, it’s going to be a big one. I just have a feeling 2022 It’s here.
D.J. Paris 3:07
I’m excited too. And we actually have some some possible news about Chris and our show. But we’ll we’ll tease that and hold that just for the next time. We have some big big announcements coming around Chris. But for now we want to talk about a topic that I believe agents are have been hearing more about in recent years, different states have different regulations around it. Some have license requirements, apparently others don’t. So this is a mileage may vary based on where you’re practicing real estate. But we wanted to talk about a very controversial topic, I would think for most of our listeners and probably a topic that gets a lot of negative response. And we want to discuss that and talk about, you know, the ethics of this particular process, which is called wholesaling. So I’m very excited, because this is I get just to give you a little a little insight into my under not even my understanding of wholesaling. But as a real estate recruiter, I’ve been doing this 12 years, and I end up talking to a lot of agents who, once they get their license are figuring out which firm they want to join. And they’ll interview here, usually with other firms too. And I’ve been doing this 12 years and only I would say in Illinois in Illinois, the last two years, all of a sudden I started getting calls from people saying do you allow wholesaling because Illinois did apparently change their their requirements where Chris and I actually just looked it up. If you do more than two wholesale transactions in a year, you do need a license and in state of Illinois, other states have different rules, but I’m getting a lot of these calls. So it just kind of seemingly out of nowhere. So I’m very curious to talk about this with Chris, who’s a journalist and also a practicing agent. So let’s define maybe to get start Did we should just define what wholesaling is for just anyone who might not be familiar?
Chris Linsell 5:04
Yeah. So wholesaling in a nutshell is when somebody, a wholesaler approaches a home seller, and that’s usually the way it works, it’s usually somebody soliciting a home owner, somebody who owns property and saying to them, I’d like to purchase your home. And in order to do that, we need to get the home have a contract for a particular price. And the wholesaler actually doesn’t have a specific intention to, to execute this contract, their goal is to get the home under contract at a certain price. And then they go take this contracted price, and they turn around and they try to sell this contract or in the business, we call this a sign, they try to assign the contract to another buyer, who is willing to pay a higher price than the contracted price. So a good example of this is, let’s say I am a wholesaler DJ, you are a home owner, I would approach you and I would say, I would like to purchase your home for $90,000. And we you agreed to this, you put the home under contract, we have it in writing, I’m going to purchase this home for $90,000. And then I take this contract and I turn around and I turn to say a network of investors and I say I have this contract on 123 Main Street for $90,000. I will sell it to you for $100,000. More likely than not, I wouldn’t tell you exactly how much I have under contract for because what I want is for you to pay a higher price than what I paid for it. I would then if I agreed to your offer of or the investors offer of say $100,000 Then I would transfer my con my contractual obligations to the investor, the total price would be $100,000 90,000 would be paid to the original seller because that was their agreed upon sale price. And then the remaining 10,000 would go to me as the wholesaler. So it’s not a complicated process. This is what we hear a lot in the in the internet space as arbitrage when you find something cheap, and then you sell it for more. This is a pretty straightforward arbitrage technique. But it gets a little sticky in the real estate space because we have licenses, we have regulation. We have a code of ethics. And there’s a lot of questions about whether or not all of the above apply to the wholesaling game.
D.J. Paris 8:01
So a few quick questions about who gets access to what information. So just to recap, a wholesaler goes to a homeowner Hey, I’ll buy your property for x or I’ll put it under contract I’ll buy the option to purchase it but I’m basically I am not basically I am I am saying I will purchase the contract for next purchase the the the property, then it goes under contract. So the homeowner no longer can really is going to look for additional offers. And then that wholesaler goes around to people they know who are investors, or just anyone who wants wants to possibly buy this property. Now does the home current homeowner who’s selling do they know what the total end price of the wholesaler who finds another buyer do they get to see well, I sold it for 90 and this other person bought it for 151? Well, that would be significant. But But yeah, let’s just say 150. Would the home owner ever know that?
Chris Linsell 9:05
That’s a great question. And guess what? Nobody knows. There is no regulation around this. There’s no requirement for disclosure, at least not on a national level. There is no board or local association that says Here are the rules to wholesaling. It is kind of the Wild West in the same way that if you bought a pair of sneakers at a garage sale for $10. You would you would feel pretty great if you bought the sneakers for $10 at a garage sale and then put them on eBay for $80. Would the person who sold them at the garage sale would probably feel pretty rotten about that.
D.J. Paris 9:45
And wholesaler wholesaling contracts typically are not recorded on the MLS. I don’t know of any exception to that. But that is another reason why that information is often private because you wouldn’t get to see the recorded sort of public or the record that other agents would be able to see. And then maybe the homeowner might see as well.
Chris Linsell 10:09
That’s correct. And in fact, they there would be, it would be strange if it was recorded on the MLS, because wholesaling is almost exclusively done by people without real estate licenses without the tutelage of a managing broker. And without the regulation of a local association. It really is, in many respects, it is real estate, the business of real estate being conducted without the safeguards without the data, and without the regulation of the industry that is so prevalent in what I call traditional real estate transactions. So yeah, well, you wouldn’t see that on the MLS, you wouldn’t see the wholesale price, you wouldn’t see the investor price. And unless you live in a disclosure state, this is a private sale, that would never be accounted for on your MLS unless your MLS has some sort of retroactive like tax record, kind of reconciliation later on. But here’s the other interesting thing in the majority of states, Michigan is one of these states, when it comes to these private sales, it is not required that the township record, the specific number that a private sale happens under it is only required if that number is reached via a public sale through a licensed, licensed real estate professional. So not even going to the tax records would allow you to understand the value of this property as it changes hands, it really is kind of a different side is the other side to the coin of real estate transactions is wholesaling.
D.J. Paris 12:02
So let’s talk about the possible problems. Maybe we can just keep them in, you know, any sort of category, whether it’s ethical or legal. We’ll just start discussing what what might be more obvious as an issue, and maybe less obvious. And I’d like to start with one that in case you’re not as familiar with wholesaling. A not Chris, of course is but for our oldest listeners, one of the tactics that is often used, although certainly we don’t want to paint all wholesalers with the same brush. But a tactic that is often criticized that is, you know, used enough to become something that people write and talk about, for a process, a practice that is not well received, which is that a wholesaler oftentimes has no inclination, and in most cases, would never have inclination to actually purchase a property, what they’re wanting to do, the way they get paid, is they’re going to, as Chris said, sell that to an investor. So that’s sort of the whole point of wholesaling is not for the middleman, the wholesaler to end up with the property. So what they oftentimes do is they will tell the homeowner, that they are in fact going to purchase this property, that is the commitment they’re making. And then there’s a race against the clock for that wholesaler to find a buyer. So the one of the first criticisms is there’s some sort of false or false pretense here of that I am going to purchase this property Mr. or Mrs. Seller. I don’t know how often a wholesaler would disclose. I’m going to make a promise to purchase this, but I’m really not going to purchase this. I’m going to find somebody else to purchase it. And there’s really no obligation I think on the wholesalers and illegal obligation to tell the homeowner this at all.
Chris Linsell 13:59
Yeah, that’s that’s true, though. There, let’s make no mistake in a traditional purchase contract. It is it is illegal to enter into a contract that you have no intent, or ability to fulfill. This is legally is a tort, known as the fraud in the inducement it is it is committing fraud to sign a contract that you have no intention or ability or resources to execute. So, and frankly, it kind of is a house of cards that starts to fall down pretty quickly. If a wholesaler discloses to the seller that they have no intention of actually buying this because in doing so a wholesaler would have to say, Hey, listen, I’d like to get your home under I’d like to have exclusive right to purchase your home for a certain day. dollar figure. And I know that that dollar figure is under the market value of this home. So, I’m gonna go and try and find somebody who will buy it for market value. You, I’m gonna, I am requiring a contract from you that says I’m gonna buy this home for less than what it’s worth. No home seller in their right mind would agree to that, unless there are some extraordinary circumstances. And even if there were extraordinary circumstances, the home seller is not guaranteed a sale here, they’re only guaranteed that the home wholesaler will have the exclusive right to look for an investor or look for somebody to assign this to. There is a real chink in the armor of wholesaling, when you put it on the backdrop of the real estate practice, because in no way shape or form, is any step of the real estate wholesaling process that I cannot ascertain anyway, one that offers a fiduciary responsibility to any of the parties, there is no responsibility to the seller to do them to look out for their best interests or even their interests at all. There’s no responsibility to the buyer. The only person that matters in this scenario is the wholesaler. And that is completely opposite what our Code of Ethics binds us to.
D.J. Paris 16:31
Now what happens if a, if a wholesaler does not secure an investor with this sort of this contract that they’ve put in place with the with the current homeowner?
Chris Linsell 16:44
Well, there’s a handful of things that could happen, they could say, I’ve changed my mind, I don’t want to buy this. And the seller could say, Well, hey, we have a contract, you are obligated to buy this. And the seller, or the buyer could say, well, I don’t have the money. And so you can try and sue me, but what are you going to sue me for? I don’t have any cash. And laws are typically written to protect buyers, instead of sellers. So it’s usually more of a pursuit that is going to be more trouble than it’s worth. If a seller was to try and bring legal action, a buyer could, if they can’t find somebody to assign their contract to if they are smart, they are baking in escape clauses into their contracts that say, I have the right to void this contract. For no for no reason for absolutely no reason other than I just don’t want to be in it up to a certain date, these kinds of escape clauses. The other thing that they could do, hypothetically, is they could bake a contract bake into their contracts, some sort of I will, you know, at such and such a time, if you are a licensed real estate professional at such and such a time, if I don’t have somebody to assign this contract to, I will list the home for sale for the price that we have we’ve agreed upon. That does happen occasionally. But frankly, it is usually a scenario of the wholesaler just says, Well, that didn’t work out. I’m just gonna walk away and move on to the next person that I’m going to try and put under contract. It just doesn’t end well for many people, frankly.
D.J. Paris 18:37
Yeah, and I will say, oftentimes another tactic that wholesalers will use in order to justify the process is if the homeowner says, Well, why wouldn’t I listed with a realtor? And the wholesaler might say, well, let me explain to you how realtor fees and commissions work and if we you know figure out what those triggers you know, typical Commission’s might be if somebody were to sell this property well look you’re actually you know, going to be paying this X amount in fees and commissions so here’s a way to avoid fees and commissions and I’m willing to buy it right now for this for essentially no fees or commissions. So yeah, if you had a a realtor, they might be able to get you 100,000 But you’re gonna be paying possibly 10,000 And now that’s that those numbers probably aren’t accurate, but but that’s that’s sometimes another tactic that’s used to convince that seller or the homeowner to sell the property to the wholesaler right that in there to avoid a lot of those commission issues.
Chris Linsell 19:45
Yeah, it’s the truth. And frankly, it is kind of a smoke and mirrors sort of explanation because it is really hard to it’s really hard to justify and a wholesaling angle As a benefit to a seller, because, frankly, the only way that I think hypothetically, this makes sense for a home seller is if the margin that a wholesaler would clear would be less than the typical cost of a real estate transaction. And that margin would then be likely somewhere in the neighborhood of three or 4%. Maybe. And for most people that I know, that have pursued or are active in the wholesaling space 10 to 15% is kind of the only thing they get out of bed for frankly. And so there just is no, I just, there’s no math that makes sense to me as to how this this benefits anyone except for a single person in the middle of this transaction, who is essentially taking an exorbitant fee to play matchmaker between investor and property seller or property owner.
D.J. Paris 21:03
And for so we might be thinking at this point, well, what kind of owner might be susceptible to this sort of sales pitch from a wholesaler? And I can think of a few examples, one could be possibly the heirs of maybe some parents that pass away that leave a house to children or other family members who do not ever want to deal with that home again, just want to get rid of it. I imagine wholesalers probably try to find those types of situations and say, hey, I can get rid of this for you very simply. And easily. You don’t have to deal with anything, I’m just going to buy it for this. So that would be sort of, I think, a pretty obvious, you know, reason why why that could happen. Another one would be the home is in distressed state where it’s going to require a tremendous amount of upkeep to get it to be able to sell effectively on the MLS, right? So that’s another or perhaps the loan is underwater, or the homeowner can no longer pay the mortgage. And there’s a risk of defaulting on the loan. So distressed kind of situations, I would think would be more susceptible, where people are just looking to get out. And maybe they grab the first lifeboat that comes their way. Yeah, and do I have a good understanding of that?
Chris Linsell 22:22
I think that those all those situations make sense. But I can’t not a single one of those scenarios in my brain is the optimal scenario. Because if let’s say you’ve got the errors, your parents, your parents just passed away, you’ve got their house, you need to unload it for emotional or financial or logistical reasons. You name it. It will, you know, in what way does somebody saying I will conditionally buy your house assuming that I can find somebody else to pay more for it than I’m offering you. Like, how does that simplify your life? I guess there’s just I can’t think of a single scenario where having somebody who might buy my house and puts me under contract and handcuffs Me and does not allow me to do anything else with my house in the time that they’re maybe going to buy it but not really going to buy it. Like they’re just to me, there are this, this feels like, I’m just gonna be honest with you. This feels like a grift. To me, this, this does not feel like there is anything there’s any upside measurable to the other outcomes that are possible within a real estate scenario that makes sense to people is it doesn’t happen. Yeah, it happens every day. I’m sure they’re there. It happens more than we have an understanding of because of the lack of regulation and recording. And could it be, I guess, hypothetically, an option for some people, maybe. And there might be wholesalers out there who take a very different approach to this. They might say there might be wholesalers out there that say, Listen, I have a network of investors who are interested in homes that match the criteria of your home, I understand that you may have set reasons why your home doesn’t feel like a candidate for sale. Maybe it is in disrepair. Maybe you are financially in a place where you’re concerned that the amount of money that you would get for the home wouldn’t cover your loan, and it would put you in a spot where you have to bring money to the table at closing. And that’s just not an option for you. There are a handful of reasons why a home owner might want to sell and feel like they can’t sell and a wholesaler does have if they’re connected in the right ways they could have value via these connections that could provide to a home owner with the rights kind of network to execute on their goals. That being said, because of the lack of regulation, you don’t need a license. You don’t need any training. You don’t have to repeat frankly, this is income that if you wouldn’t, the, there’s no, there’s no form of reporting, there’s no state regulatory agencies, this is somebody stroking you a check. Frankly, this is there’s just so many ways that this goes sideways, that you need a, like an absolute, like a cadre of, of virtual angels who decide they want to become wholesalers to avoid the legal and ethical and just, frankly, immoral pitfalls that come with this scenario, in my opinion.
D.J. Paris 25:57
You know, I I completely agree, I think we’ve made the case that this is largely a predatory practice. You know, similar to, you know, I always think of it more similar to the days before 2008 Nine, where the real estate market crashed significantly, where there were interest only loans, the early 2000s, where people did not have to put it wasn’t a grift, per se, but it was a very vulnerable place to be if you went into an interest only loan that might adjust from 2% as your initial rate up to 7%, you know, within a year or two SEC by twos time and those, those loans aren’t even I think they’re still around. Maybe a better example is a reverse mortgage, which, which also is problematic for a lot of a lot of cases. But we I think we agree that this is a dubious and predatory practice, you know, and again, I’m sure there’s people that would would claim otherwise. But that’s just our opinions of it. That being said, I will tell you, here in Chicago, I’m a recruiter. So I deal with people who are looking to move firms, they talk to usually many firms, including ours. By the time they get to me it’s not usually I’m not the first person they’ve chatted with. And if they are wanting to go into wholesaling, at least here in Chicago, the response I get is the very first question is do you allow wholesaling? Do you allow your agents to wholesale? And our answer is no. And the reason for that is with the reasons we just mentioned, and in addition, our errors and omissions coverage does not include wholesaling, or I believe it doesn’t include or it’s like questionable about whether our insurance provider would cover any errors and omissions claim on a wholesaling transaction. And we’re just worried about it losing our license. So we we don’t allow it. And what people tell me is, I don’t even know a firm. I’m sure there are that allow it but none of the large franchise firms I’m To my knowledge, none of them allow it. And I’ve yet to find any firm here locally, even smaller firms that that do allow it again, I’m sure there are some, but it is it is it’s become very common that I get these calls, because I think what happens, at least here in Chicago, there’s a lot of seminars and courses that the people can take where they are told about this practice, and it is pitched in a way that is I’m sure you know, persuasive, seductive, even possibly, and then but Oh, but you have to really get your real estate license in Illinois to really be able to do wholesaling. Again, I guess you could do up to two transactions a year without it. But if you’re really wanting to make money at this, you probably want to do more than that. So you have people that get their license, and then they’re just stuck going well, nobody really wants me. And it’s like, well, yeah, because you were sort of sold on this, this whole concept. And you and you new agent didn’t even know that this is kind of a predatory practice. So it’s just becoming really common. I think the people benefiting the most oftentimes are the people selling these courses because like just exploded out of out of seemingly nowhere in the last couple years.
Chris Linsell 29:09
Yeah, it’s the truth. And you know, one thing that is really interesting to me, and something that I hope if you are listening to this, maybe you you saw the title of this podcast and you’re and you don’t have a real estate license, and you’re thinking well I want to get into wholesaling. So maybe this will be helpful for me if you are the sort of person who would be good at wholesaling. Now, these are the sorts of people who connect well with their community. They talk well to strangers, they are able to demonstrate value of their of their services via their I like a smart and thoughtful conversation and can answer good questions. You would do great. As a licensed Realtor, this is what we do. And in fact You get to do this with the benefit of also have been able to go to bed at night with a clear conscience knowing that you are getting paid, on average a lot of money relative to the rest of the working world. And you’re doing so with the best interests of your clients in mind. I mean, if you think that wholesaling is for you, real estate, really, I mean, it really could work out great for you that that. The last thing I want to say about this DJ, and I think this is important to say is, even though I think wholesaling is mendacious, and frankly, it’s it’s fraud in a lot of ways. It is a it is a threat to an over regulated industry that is ready and needs change in order to account for the way that business is done in the 21st century and and beyond. And though I think that this particular iteration of change and disruption is harmful on the whole, to most players in the market. Change does need to happen. regulations need to adjust. They need to be loosened in some places tightened in other places, we need to account for the way that business is done in the 21st century. And while I don’t think this is the way to do it, this is this should be a high sign. This should be a lighthouse on the ocean here that says hey, look, there are things happening over here. And we need to adjust to them, we need to change our thinking a little bit as an industry to account for these different approaches. And is this the way to do it? Probably not. But I do think that our industry deserves some disruption and some regulatory change. If this, isn’t it, which I don’t think it should be, we need to think about it in other terms and have those conversations.
D.J. Paris 32:13
Yeah, I’ll just I’ll just end with this as a something that I get I do consider myself a bit outside of the industry, because that was not my background was was not real estate when I came on board here, and I don’t practice real estate. And I have always been absolutely confused. This is a different topic for a different day about real estate commissions and who actually pays them. And that’s something that I feel is murky at best, possibly not intentionally secretive, and sort of confusing, but just by nature of the laws and processes in place. And the standards that we employ can be very difficult to understand for a homeowner who’s either selling or the person buying. And I always find it interesting to ask agents. How do you explain Commission’s you know, to your not what you get paid, but just what the overall commission is and who’s actually paying those fees? And and it’s not as comp? It’s not as simple answer, I don’t feel. And that’s something we’re also, you know, we’re talking about regulation. And maybe we can spend a whole topic on how to have conversations about what real estate commissions are and and who’s responsible for, for paying them. Because that, to me is also very confusing.
Chris Linsell 33:28
Totally, totally. And there are, there are so many different ways that we can improve our process just by educating both ourselves and our consumers and being supported by regulatory bodies and local conditions that facilitate that education rather than hinder it. So if we keep things like wholesaling on the fray and and frankly, if we over regulate in the wrong ways, it’s going to drive people to the unregulated spaces. This is why black markets occur, frankly, because we are providing over regulation that prevents the real flow of information, goods, services and money. And people say like, well shoot, I can do this better on my own. And I know how to do this. And there’s no reason that I shouldn’t do this. So I’m just gonna look out for number one and just do it like this. And that’s not the precedent we want to set as an industry.
D.J. Paris 34:23
Agreed, well, we a great place to wrap up. And just as we’re wrapping up, I want to remind everyone that if you’re not already a current reader and subscriber to the closed.com, it is our absolute recommendation that you start reading their content. 99% of it is free right on their site, and it’s good long form deep dive articles into how to become a better realtor, essentially, how to better improve your business your skills. They go deep, and very few. In fact, I’m not sure of any real estate, blogs or web sites that have this kind of level of journalism, where it’s specifically designed to help agents kind of grow and grow quickly. Can you just mention the subscription model that the close has for anyone who wants to sort of see what, what else the close offers, in addition to all this great free content?
Chris Linsell 35:17
Yeah, absolutely. If you want to come join, if you want to take your business to the next level, and you go a little deeper on the close, you can join the close Pro, close Pro is our premium service. It is the place where we keep all of our fantastic next level courses, our resource library, access to coaching access to webinars that you can’t get anywhere else. We’ve got a fantastic set of training courses, on Facebook and on Instagram and on surviving and thriving and shifting markets and long term lead generation strategies. It just goes on and on and on. We are looking at providing frankly, the next level of service if you are if you like what we do on the clothes come get a personalized level up approach by by accessing the clothes Pro, we offer this at 35 bucks a month 299 for the year. And there are a ton of things that get added to this service every single month. So come check out the closed Pro. And even if you’re not interested in closed Pro, just come come to the close we got all sorts of cool stuff going on. Including like really, really great new content that’s hitting the hitting the wire every day like just today we published or yesterday we published seven real estate, excuse me seven real estate copywriting rules. professional writers swear by Realtors you guys were writing listing descriptions and marketing and branding comm learn from professionals comm check out what we got with this is the sort of content we publish every single day.
D.J. Paris 36:58
We’re big fans, everyone should go to the close.com and read their content, get hooked on it, it will help your business and it’s not the simple five tips to have a successful open house that are things like bake cookies and things you already know. They go they like I said they go deep and wide. And they actually that because they know if the content isn’t good, you’re not going to show up again and the content is good. So please go to the clothes.com. Chris, as always, thank you so much for showing up on our on again, in really going deep in a topic of wholesaling. And for anyone else who if you have ideas of topics that you’d like Chris and I to discuss at length like wholesaling, please let us know. But also, please tell a friend about our show. Think of one other real estate professional that would benefit from hearing this or perhaps send this to homeowners as a way to educate them about wholesaling people that you know, I also see this as a huge opportunity for our listeners who are agents who think well, what do I do about this? Educate your customers, your sphere of influence is a great topic to create social media content about making videos about and really kind of a buyer beware, beware scenario that you get to talk about with everyone, you know. So anyway, hopefully this was helpful. Thank you, Chris. On behalf of Chris and myself. We also thank the entire audience for continuing to listen and support our show and we will see everybody next time. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, TJ.